Matthew Raley Interview

Q: Let me start with asking you to tell us a little bit about who Matthew Raley is.

I am a pastor in a small town. The Lord has given me several blessings that I especially treasure. I have a beautiful and loving wife, and we have two very busy little boys (age 2 and 7). The congregation I’ve served for almost nine years is a deep encouragement to me because of how committed the people are to the Lord. And through playing classical violin, I’m able to work closely with people outside the church.

One of the things I love most is collaboration. Writing, church leadership, and music all involve give and take with people, and that process is stimulating to me.

Q: Could you give us the highlights of your professional writing career including how you got your first writing break?

My career is all highlights right now, because it’s just getting started. I wrote a novel called The Work of Our Hands several years ago and entered it in a contest sponsored by the Christian Writers Guild. My novel didn’t win anything, nor did it deserve to.

The Guild puts on a conference called “Writing For the Soul,” and I took the novel to several editors and got encouraging feedback. By “encouraging feedback,” I mean that the editors took the time to explain why the novel was so poor. I sincerely took this as progress, because editors don’t have time to teach writing. They give criticisms if they think there’s something in a manuscript to develop.

After I implemented advice from editors at different publishing houses, Kregel bought the novel and titled it Fallen.

Q: Would you tell us about your current book release, Fallen?

This is a novel about the impact of lying on the soul, both the soul of the liar and that of the deceived. The story shows many forms of lying, from lies of omission to self-deception. It also shows how liars use weak doctrine to advance their agendas. I believe that our current understanding of the gospel is quite poor, and leaves us vulnerable to manipulators. (See the next question.)

Q: If your readers could take away only one message from Fallen, though I found many in reading the book, what would that be?

The characters Jim (the church chairman) and Dave (the pastor) share a concept of God that I would call suburban. God, for them, is very nice. Also, they have definitions of sin that are superficial-one legalistic (sin is rule-breaking), and the other therapeutic (sin is a disease, not a fault). Neither man knows what sin is, or why we should be held accountable for it. And because their God is merely nice, neither man has a sense of God’s grace and holiness.

When people don’t know what sin is or who God is, liars have big opportunities.

The message I’d most like readers to see in this story is that God is gloriously beyond human control. His grace is free: God really doesn’t owe it, and we really don’t deserve it. He is bigger than liars.

Q: Of course, all my readers want to know if Fallen is based on an actual situation or if the storyline is completely fictional.

Fallen is completely fictional. It is informed by the many stories I’ve heard about pastoral sins, and I’ve had my share of dealings with manipulative people. But the characters are wholly invented.

Q: Fallen deals with controversial issues, yet is right on target with many things that happen in our churches and to Christians. What advice would you give to someone who has gone through a situation like Jim experiences in Fallen? (I’d be more specific with this question but I don’t want to give any of the plot away.)

If you have experienced any sort of church conflict, put yourself through an intentional detox with Jesus. If you do, you will thrive, and you’ll have wisdom for future ministry.

Detox with Jesus, for me, begins with an intensive rereading of books like Ephesians, 2 Corinthians, and Proverbs. (2 Corinthians may be the most neglected book of the Bible.) I line up my own behavior with the truths in those scriptures and confess my sins. I confess as specifically as I can, without allowances for what I think other sinners did to me. From this position of receiving mercy, then I give mercy. I reinterate to Jesus that I release others from their debts to me-reiterating it as often as I need to.

It’s important not to be passive after church conflicts. You can direct your emotions by refocusing your mind on God’s word and grace. Talking with trustworthy counselors is key. For married people, do not detox separately. Experience renewal together with your spouse.

Q: There are no innocent bystanders in the situation Jim faces in Fallen, yet when confronted with a sin like this people often look the other way, even those who are in charge. They are just unable to face what has happened. Once a sin like this is out in the open how would you encourage a church body to recover from such a situation?

You’re right that many church leaders “are just unable to face what has happened.” Very few leaders are prepared for the crucible of pastoral sin.

So in these situations, lay leaders and staff will often fail. From the best intentions, they will make serious errors in church discipline, public and private communication, and planning. My advice is, be deferential to them anyway. Don’t try to lead from the pew. It won’t work.

Here’s my reasoning. If you deliberately encourage, pray for, and pray with faltering leaders, you will become an emotional and spiritual resource for them. You will also understand more fully the considerations they wrestle with. A leader deeply appreciates those who hang in there while he fumbles.

There is a time to leave a church. Some leadership teams become abusive. Some teams flagrantly lie to cover up sins.

But I think the day is coming when strong local churches will be rare. So I would take the long view. Think of what you can do within your sphere of influence to restore your church. Do that work of restoration as far as you’re able, and ask the Lord to bless it. Two ways of doing this work would be going through detox with Jesus in small groups, and bringing others along to encourage your leaders.

Q: Have members of the church you Pastor read Fallen and if so, how have they reacted?

They’re more excited about the book than I expected. They’ve had to listen to me for nine years, so they see more of my big themes in the story than other people see. (Themes like the ones I outlined above.) They tell me about their favorite scenes. Some of them have said how surprised they are that I would write this kind of book because I’m not a storyteller in the pulpit. It’s been fun to discuss their responses.

Q: I found your character development and dialogue in Fallen to be strong and in depth. To what do you attribute your skills in creating such real life characters?

I’m encouraged! I worked hard at character development and dialogue. All I can tell you is what I tried to do.

In writing dialogue, I place my bets on two techniques. I try to find the exact word a character would use for each sentence. Then I try to put words in an order that expresses the character’s emotion. For example, an angry character might yell at his antagonist, “Scram!” But he might not. His anger might make him whisper, “I want you to get out of here right now!” In that case, the word order, “Right now, I want you to get out of here,” would destroy the emotion. And a man who gets softer when he’s angry probably wouldn’t say, “I want you to scram!” It just looks false on the page.

Whenever I have to explain what a character is feeling (as in, “Jim’s voice was tight with irritation”), I know that I either haven’t chosen his exact word, or haven’t put the words in the right emotional order.

Q: Fallen is classified as a suspense novel, but it is far different from a typical suspense novel. In your opinion, what makes the book suspenseful?

I think this gets back to character development. Unlike most suspense novels, Fallen is not plot-driven. Almost every twist of plot is a direct outworking of character. What makes this suspenseful is that the characters are loaded with contradictions. For instance, Jim claims to look forward to seeing his daughter at the end of the day, but when he actually gets home, he bellows at her over petty issues.

When a person has contradictions like that, we are bothered. We wonder how he can sustain the contradiction, how he can rationalize it. Doesn’t he see his hypocrisy? This is a kind of suspense I often find in Patricia Highsmith’s novels.

As a suspense device, it is subtle-too subtle for genre fiction. The book starts slow. But I think a character-driven story has greater moral power in the end than one driven by plot twists that impose choices on characters.

Q: As pastor of a church, how do you balance that commitment with your writing and how has it helped you in your writing?

I am working on the balance of writing and pastoring more now. Before Fallen was published, the only work in writing was drafting and editing. Now I am doing promotional work and developing new projects. I’m basically working two jobs, and I’m not sure how it’s all going to balance. I just know that I’m called to stay in Orland as a pastor, called to be a husband and father, and called to write. As a practical matter, I schedule week by week, prioritizing as I go.

Pastoring has helped me learn other people’s points of view, which means I can adopt a character’s emotional vantagepoint more easily. The trouble is, understanding others’ points of view tends to make me kinder (very gradually). That’s right for pastoring. But a fiction writer has to be ruthless.

Q: Where do you find your inspirations for your plots?

Characters. My imaginary friends won’t leave me alone, and they start doing stuff.

Q: How has being a published novelist differed from your expectations of the profession?

I didn’t expect the computer to become such a constant companion. It has always been a tool, but now I’m always peering at the screen in some writing-related task. I don’t like computers.

Q: One of the greatest challenges in writing, once the work is finished, is creating a compelling synopsis and book proposal that piques the interest of a publisher. Fallen is unique, and I would imagine not easy to classify or compare with other books on the market. So, how did you pique the interest of an editor with your very creative book?

Fallen had many strikes against it when I was seeking publication. The subject-matter was considered provocative. It is not plot-driven, and, as you’ve noted, doesn’t fit neatly in established categories. Most importantly, from a marketing point of view, its main characters are male. Readers of Christian fiction are women.

Actually, with those considerations, I’m not sure why Kregel bought it. But I think they believe, as I do, that Christian women are smart, curious, passionate about the health of their churches, and eager to interact with complex characters-even if the characters are male.

Q: Would you share with us what you are working on now?

I am working on a non-fiction book about how Jesus interacted with the Samaritan woman in John 4, using him as a model for crossing ideological barriers today. I’m also working on another suspense novel, this one about identity theft in an exurban church.

Q. As a newly published author, what do you see as the greatest obstacle to becoming published today?

In my case, the biggest obstacle to being published was myself. I had to make a decision whether to write what I wanted, or to write what others would read. The bottom line was, I needed to write what would be edifying to someone else. In that sense, writing is a discipline that teaches me how to love. Once I decided to write things that would edify others, I began to make progress toward publication. I still have a lot to learn about edifying people.

Q: Anything else you’d like to tell or share with us?

Your questions have been stimulating, and it’s been a delight to talk with you about these issues. Thanks for your interest, and for the opportunity to speak to your readers!